F1-1955 MB W196 conversion.

[gorgias1976]

This is not the 2.5L torque/power graph, but the 3L. Anyway, being the same year (and same W196 type) I guess there may be some similarities.

Take from here: http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/m.../1955.html

[Navigator]

Nice, thank you!

You'll have to excuses me though, but in that line; I can't see where the "kick" upwards of 5000rpm comes from? Certainly no double torque-high.
I'm trying to recreate that (double) kick, but my line looks very different from that.
Lets see how that ends up.
If not okay, I can always recreate this line.

Thanks for the research!

[Navigator]

Well, its time for the update

I did a lot this time and all new stuff (flex chassis, new engine) so it will be different and I have no illusions it will be spot on right away.
Anyway, the changeling will tell you about it:

Changelog V0.23

Chassis: implemented new flex-chassis
Steering: new steering model with “double calculated angles” should give more feel and heavier steering
Sound: volume idle up, “roar” from 5000 rpm upwards should be more noticeable
added windrush, transmission sound and brake hiss
Engine: new engine model implemented; should give the “double torque high” from 5000 rpm up and peak at 6400/8100 rpm
Brakes: cold- or to hot brakes now should significantly lower the brake torque
Tires: not much change, just a bit for balance. Please try out the two compounds and never mind the “hard” or “soft” as they are just two different kinds with no regards to hardness

Note that there are no “Fixed” lines in here; conversion is in progress and I am working towards the point where you guys say: “that’s it!”.

[JimmyC]

Awesome mod! I just tried V. 0.21 and loved it. Rear traction is clearly its weakness, as it should be with those skinny tires and all that torque and power. Off throttle drift was very nice and controllable. Steering by throttle is much more effective than with the wheel. Setup adjustments made clear differences as well. Now to try ver. 0.23. The community here is finding some remarkable resources.

Later:
First impression after driving ver. 0.23: I prefer the earlier version. It has more "feel" and feedback about the car. This later one feels a little more "modern" and grippy, with less ability to steer by throttle. The steering is heavier, but has less feel. The sound is an improvement, as is the engine model torque curve. Maybe I need to spend more time comparing the two compounds. BTW I'm testing at Aintree 1955.

And again: It just seems too easy to drive compared to ver. 0.21. The "hard" compound may be just a little slower. I reduced my car-specific ffb by 25% which helped some. It's tending towards understeer more than 0.21 even under power. Maybe they actually were this easy to drive.

[Navigator]

Thanks for the feedback (even on both versions) JimmyC.

What you say; the feel is less; might come from (indeed) better grip plus heavier steering; ffb might gets lost?
I will look into that.
The tires are to grippy now; they will be less. That will result in more sliding and will give back "steering by throttle"......I hope

I know which way to go now, thank you!

[jerry 33]

hey wim..
Great Car! i have not put much time in with this car yet - we are having a nice warm week here in the middle of February so I prefer to be outside.
my impressions so far - i have only tested v0.23 and i like the way it handles. disclaimer, i like grip! I also know, others don't, so i think that comes down to driver preference.
it seems fun to drive and NOT a beast like the T70. even the F5000 car is a handful. i agree that the default FOV for the in-car view is too far back. but that can be adjusted. the sound - not a big fan of yet. will do some more testing this morning, but i would defiantly want to have this car for one of our fun races. at monza, a nice flowing track without chicanes where this car is supposed to be raced at..
thank you for all your efforts......

[gorgias1976]

Grip/power can be tested by checking 1955 results and seeing how close to them we are at rF2.

Pole position lap at Belgium was 4:18.1 by Fangio (Race was 36 laps, by the way, can't wait to have an endurance race the same length ;D).
Pole position lap at Montecarlo was 1:41.1 by Fangio. (Race 100 laps 8) )
Pole position lap at Brianza 10km was 2:46.5 by Fangio. (Race 50 laps)

[DJCruicky]

Thanks again Wim,
I gave the new version a go last night, but not had time to post until now.

Sorry, only tried the default tyre, forgot to try the other.

I found the same as JimmyC, the mod is now super easy to drive now. I do not know if that is bad, good or whatever. Does not feel like I'm driving with skinny tyres no more. A lot more people will be able to drive it now and should lead to closer racing like the F3 cars. The Old version I think only the pros could get away with driving it without spinning. It is hard to advise you what to do here.

A few little things I picked up on,

I made some screen shots to help show:-

Ingame, where you pick the car could the name be changed to the full name and sub name? Year, Make, Car or something with more info.
[url][/url]


I had another play with seat position. When moving the seat to 100% forward, the eye view is still behind the back of the seat. You can see when using the free cam button. See screen shots.

Seat postion 0
[url][/url]

Seat postion 100
[url][/url]

Seat postion 100 using free cam button
[url][/url]

The virtual mirrors are stretched (see above middle screen shot). The mirrors on the cars are fine but.

This bit might be hard to do. I don't know. The tyres in motion at speed make them look like they going backwards at some speeds. I'm looking from in-car view. I know rfactor has the ability to blend in other textures at different speeds to add a fake like motion blurr effect. I'm seeing it a little bit here, but there seems to be something not right. But like I say this could be difficult to get right so time could be spent else where.


Thanks again Wim for mod. The above are not nick pikes, just some useful feedback I hope for you.
cheers

[Navigator]

Thank you very much for the wonderful feedback guys! I can work with that.
Never mind I would see it as nitpicking; absolutely not! I value what is said very much; it gives me a good point to work towards.

Let me adres what I've got so far (in random order)

>> the grip; to high. I said I made small changes (and I did) but I did take another background of tire......forgot about that!
So, yes, the grip is higher and I agree it is to much.
The dilemma if it would be nice this way or more like real; I would like to say it must be as close to real as possible.
The reason for that; take a league like this: mostly it is preferred and appreciated if a car handles like the real thing did. I'm a bit afraid that if I leave the grip like this, it will be no serious mod but a plaything.
I will use the pole lap times Gorgias posted for reference; if I drive 2 or 3 seconds slower, it must be close. There are always guys faster than me

>> cockpit position; indeed. I was a bit confused because I thought I fixed it already but no. I did, but its implemented in the next update. I choose 0/0 viewpoint and searched for a position where your head would be in that case; you can go up/down/foreward/backward 100 settings from that.

>> mirrors; I fixed that one and now the mirrors in the car have a bit higher resolution (I don't see it really) but the virtual mirrors on top are okay now. Will be in the next update too.

>> car description; good one. I will fill in some more info and will have a look if extra's can be put in there too.
Also, near the end of the process, I will put pictures in there from the car.

>> sound; still working on it and it is a bit back and forth......where to go, what to do. I'm not satisfied either and will go on with it.


Please don't hesitate to point out things I worked on that are still not okay.
Most things like grip for example will have to go step-by-step. I try to get it right in one try, but walking on water is a lot easier Plus; I drive it all the time to try every little change; there comes a point where I don't feel it proper anymore.
Also; I'm not that great......I think I may have fixed something but can be wrong just as easily.

For now, in this early stage, things can not be marked "fixed" but just "made better" up to a point when you guys say; that's it!
Version 0.24 will be here tomorrow; I'll have my work cut out for me tonight. Thank you all for that; I was losing my vision.

[DJCruicky]

Thanks Wim

[Navigator]

Edit,

Forgot about the tires spinning. I have to be honest; that is not my field of expertise, anything but!
I will have to call in for some help when physics are near done for that and some other minor stuff.......

I won't forget!

[Navigator]

Some news......

As for now; NO permission

I wrote back and see how it turns out.
You should all get over here and take notes; I have thought of some new words! (They won't get in the dictionary; that much is clear!)

Ahh, I just wait and see.
Work continues though!

[1959nikos]

Some news......

As for now; NO permission

I wrote back and see how it turns out.
You should all get over here and take notes; I have thought of some new words! (They won't get in the dictionary; that much is clear!)

Ahh, I just wait and see.
Work continues though!

No answer or a NO for an answer Wim?

If its the later then you are wasting your time I think. If owner doesnt want to its his privelege.

[Navigator]

It is no for an answer.

Of course its his privilege but I can't help being sad about it.
His reason was he wants a team working on it and that team has to have proven work.
I got nothing to show for.

I have send him what I have done so far, but being the early stages it is in now; that might even work against me
I asked him to reconsider; can't hurt to try.

[1959nikos]

I can't help being sad about it.

I asked him to reconsider; can't hurt to try.

Not only you, but we all are sad about it.

Cant hurt to try again.

[Navigator]

Well, I did make the version 0.24 and promised to upload today.

I messed 24 up, so its 25 now

But first:

Changelog V0.25

Sound: changed even more to get the “roar” at 5000rpm + some very slight changes
Steering: altered due to revision of the chassis.ini: tested to much, I cant feel if I’m in the right direction now
Viewpoint: neutral setting, should now be a proper cockpit position, changed vof a bit for immersion just as the head vibration
Flex-chassis: fine-tuned already made implementations, added the new pushrod mountings, added fuel movement, calculated proper inertia’s
Edit; redone the whole chassis file. Lifted the car off the geometrical zero-line as all ISI cars are (and conversions never). This is going to take some work to sort it all out; may act/feel a bit different (not to say weird) for now
Car choice: altered the name and info. If you know of a better line to put there, please let me know. Added a picto to see if I could
Tires: back to the (slightly altered) lower grip/”steer by throttle” tires. Should slide just a little less when releasing the throttle though
Edit; please use the soft tires!
Engine: to reduce the exaggerated swapping out with the rear end by lifting, there is now an option that basically lowers the engine braking. Default is stock (“None”). To keep it in the 55 style, it’s called: “Throttle pre-opening” which you can select per 1/8th turn. Because it is not really pre-opening, you won’t get higher revs idle
Mirrors: put in a new bitmap to get higher resolution; virtual mirrors on top of the screen should be okay now (edit; didn’t work. Only in devmode for some reason, will look into it)
Gauges: made the tachometer point correctly (was to low)

To make it short; car acts a bit off now but the main point is grip and over/understeer. (Note the engine and the new setting)

[DJCruicky]

This is bad news Wim. Never mind. Hope you had fun converting it.
I will try your updated version soon.

[gorgias1976]

Well....
my experience with version 0.25

Car maybe too grippy or too powerfull.
Practiced at Belgium, default setup except for the gears.
Did a 4.00 trying to drive like a man drove in those days (considering fear factor, not cutting corners, not using 1st gear at the slowest corner). Real life best lap was a 4.18.1
Brakes also felt way too powerful (or maybe caused by tires having too much grip).
FFB is a bit too high, really battling the wheel at the bumps of the straights.

Lap video:
[youtube]uPOyQN8A0BM[/youtube]

Started also a little practice at Montecarlo, first timed lap was already as fast as 1955 pole position, but the most important was that after 4 laps brakes were overheating at the final braking of every lap hence having a big loss of braking power.
Steering ratio, at max, was a little at the limit of cornering at slowest corners.

[Navigator]

Thanks guys.

What an awesome video btw!

Battling the wheel; I understand. Yesterday I did so much changing/testing/changing/testing........I thought it was pretty okay but when I tried this morning.......wow! Utterly crap!
I started to make a new chassis file again in order to do some proper changes in te hdv for the steering; with the "new old" chassis, there wasn't room for changes.
Went out to Amsterdam for dinner this evening and all I could think of was the steering

So I came back and started what I left in the afternoon; a fresh look and some swear words and all got together.
Havent changed the tire/grip yet as I first wanted to get some proper steering; grip is much better to judge I believe when the steering is good.
I think I have found the sweet spot; steering is feeling way better and the bumping is normal, I don't have to call my wife to help me hold the steering wheel straight anymore
Also; it is easier and more natural (I think) making sharp corners.

Tomorrow I will alter the tires as I believe the grip is to high.
The torque- and power lines are just as they should be according to several sources.
Those sources even state that the top speed should reach 300 km/h and this car doesn't do that; I got it at 275 max driving the banks of Brianza.

So thats another point; speed higher and make the car less grippy.

I wonder; what did you think of the balance in grip Gorgias? Should that be altered too, or just total grip lower, front as much as rear?

[gorgias1976]

I must say I felt the car more stable than I expected to. Unless you really pushed too hard the throtle the rear wouldn't move at all. I guess it should feel a bit more as the first version we tested, having the car a little tendency to oversteer if pushed too hard.
That feeling that makes you know tires are narrow and have a hard compound.

I guess brakes should also have a little less "bite" and cooling should be a little higher otherwise disks will overheat very easily at many tracks (at least they should be able to cope with Montecarlo as it actually did).